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 Subiectul mesajului: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 10 Sep 2009, 17:24 
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Pe alocuri acest topic s-a mai atins (vezi FL target 36k, sau Longines Ultrachron, cateva postari ale mele cu Zodiac 36k), dar poate ca era timpul sa abordam sistematic aceasta caracteristica a unor ceasuri vintage a caror inima bate la 36k.

Un prim pas in documentare este un site special dedicat acestor ceasuri:
http://36000bph.com/index.php?option=co ... &Itemid=53

Urmatorul text este preluat integral de pe acest site:

In total there were nine distinct efforts to produce 36,000 vph movements

1.The first effort to succeed was Girard Perregaux's effort which brought watches with 36kbph movemetns to market in 1996. A "joint effort" between Eberhard, Favre Leuba, Girard Perregaux and Zodiac purportedly contributed to the devleopment of these watches, or alternatively the automatic winding mechanism of these watches. The movements each manufacturer ultimately came entered the market with were different enough for parts to not interchange between them, so it very unlikely that any of the movements from these watch companies was the product of joint development. This means the first effort really produced 4 distinct movements, and the degree to which there was"joint development" is questionable. Girard Perregaux was not only the first, but was also unique in producing both manual and automatic high frequency movements.
2.In 1967 the Longines (cal. 430) "Ultra-Chron" movement appeared.
3.In 1968 Seiko (cal. 6145) movement introduced, Favre Leuba introduces cal. FL 1164 (day/date/automatic) based watches, Zodiac introduces cal. 88 (date/automatic) and 86 (day/date/automatic) watches, Movado introduces cal. 405 (day/date/automatice) and cal. 408 (date/automatic) watches.
4.In 1969 the Eterna (cal. 2732) movement introduce
5.In 1969 the Zenith (cal. 3019) "El Primero" was introduced. It was the first automatic chronograph with an integrated winding mechanism to be produced, and thusly is claimed to be the first automatic chronograph movement ever produced. In 1969, Movado, Zenith and Mondia merged into the MZM Group and Zenith announced the developement of the "first integrated automatic chronograph", hence El Primero (the first in Spanish), in January of 1969.
6.In 1969 Movado intrioduced the 405 (day/date/) and 408 (date) watches in their Kingmatic watches.

7.In 1970 A. Schild (cal. 1920) was introduced.
8.It is not clear when the Felca (cal. 4177) movement was introduced, but it was likely introduced in the 70s. This is one of the few manual hi beat wristwatch movements ever produced.
9.In 1975 the Citizen (cal. 7230) movement was introduced.
In the end, then 12 different watchmakers produced watches with high frequency movements of their own design and production: Eberhard, Favre Leuba, Girard Perregaux, Zodiac, Longines, Seiko, Eterna, Movado, Zenith, A. Schild, Felca and lastly Citizen.


While most of the movements developed were automatic movements, three of the manufacturers also made manual movement hi beat watches. Longines, Seiko and Felca all produced manual 36000 VPH movements. Low demand for manual wind watches, in the face of set and forget quartz watches, probably make these the rarest types of high frequency movement watches.


Watchmakers who produced watches using 36,000 vph movements are harder to track, due the number of watchmakers who made such watches, and the failure of a significant number of these watchmakers during this period. In some cases watchmakers outright failed, disappeared or shrunk to mere shadows of their former prominence, and in other cases, watchmakers failed and their names/brands were bought up by other companies, mostly the Swatch Group, principally for marketing purposes.

Hopefully this site will help expand the depth of knowledge watch collectors have about both 36000 bph watch movements and the watches which have been built with these movements.

Why is a higher frequency movement more accurate?

At a very fundamental level, a higher frequency movement is more accurate than a lower frequency movement simply because it divides time into finer increments. Finer increments of time measurement translates into higher resolution which means a 36,000 bph movement is capable of 1/10th of a second timing where as a 28,800 bph movement is only capable of 1/8th of a second timing. Statistically high frequency watch movements should also be more accurate simply because the higher number of beats per time interval means that the stability of time keeping of these movements (i.e. the average accuracy) should be higher than a lower beat movement simple because the average is established over a greater number of beats. Put another way, the inaccuracy of any single beat has less of an impact on accuracy since more beats go into timekeeping for a given time period.

An article on this subject on timezone.com characterizes this another way. The article characterizes hi beat movements as more stable than lower beat movements. Based on the idea that disruptions of the timing train caused by physical shocks or changes are a major cause of watch inaccuracy, the article concludes that the finer timing interval of a high beat movement, means that the percentage of beats affected by a physical shock is smaller in a higher beat movement than a lower beat movement, and therefore a higher beat movement is a more stable time keeper than a lower beat movement. To see the article, click here.

What were the challenges of making a high beat movement?

Power Consumption
More beats takes more power. All of that back and forth of the timing wheel takes more power than a lower beat rate movement. Early hi beat watches had power reserves in the high 30 hour range, with later models raising power reserves to the low 40 hour range. Power reserve challenges were handled in these watches by carefully balancing the timing train of these movements to make them efficient as possible, improvements in the lubricants used and by improvements in automatic winding modules. High power use also meant that high frequency watches tend to be large in diamteter, because they need large mainsprings for power. Large diameters, mean there are no 36,000 vph women's watches.

Wear

Two types of wear come along with higher beat rates, higher frictional wear from greater amounts of movement and higher torsional loads from the higher frequency back and forth in the movement. Torsional loads were largely handled by using lighter components and balancing the timing trains of these movements to minimize the amount of torque involved in a high frequency movement.

Lubrication

With more action, high beat movements, place more stress on lubricants, making them prone to breakdown. Using heavier lubricants might have solved the problem, but heavier lubricants increase power consumption and have a greater tendency to fling. The more rapid acceleration and deceleration of the timing train making keeping lubricants from flinging a big problem, so the solution to this problem was to use dry and light weight synthetic lubricants. These new lubricants have higher resistance to breakdown, and are light enough to not fling under the rapid back and forth of a high frequency movement. In practice, assertions that high frequency movements are subject to more wear and require more frequent service than lower frequency movements have never been proven.

Why aren't high beat movements more popular for current use?

Commercially high beat movements have never achieved the wide adoption of lower beat movements. While there is probably no conclusive reason they've never been widely adopted by watchmakers the clues to why these movements never achieved wide spread popular use can probably be inferred by broadly comparing them to the ETA 2824, 28,800 bph movement, the currently most popular Swiss automatic movement.

Technologically the ETA 2824 was created in the early 70s, just after the first 36,000 bph movements were created and at the same time the last 36,000 bph movements were being created, so the technology in later high beat movements is similar to the technology in the 2824. The technology is so similar that Ulysse Nardin uses a modified version of the 2824 as the basis for their 36,000 vph movement (cal. NB 11 QU) and ETA produced a high beat kit for the 2824 to turn it into a 36kbph movement. So it is isn't the basic technology of the movement which keeps these movements from being widely adopted. Advances in ancillary technologies does highlight some of the short comings of these movements. Whereas progress in lubricants and automatic winding modules has increased the power reserve of some 2824 movements to 50 hours, modern high beat movements still have power reserves in the low 40 hour range.

While 5 hertz movements are theoretically more accurate time keepers than 4 hertz movement, there are no definitive tests that prove this. Anecdotal testing seems to indicate that these movements are slightly more accurate than their 4 hertz counterparts, and in particular slightly more stable time keepers. Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres, COSC, chronometer testing shows that 2824 movements specifically, and 28,800 bph movements in particular have no problems meeting COSC chronometer requirements, so even though these high beat movements maybe more accurate and/or more stable, there is no clear or public certification of this "advantage" so it is immaterial to the vast majority of watch buyers.

The last and probably the most accurate reason that high beat movements were not widely adopted is cost. High beat movements have always been more expensive than lower beat movements to produce. Special oils, special balances, some higher tolerance parts, and these movements end up being more expensive to produce. While at volume it is likely that the cost premium of these movements over lower beat rate movements might be as low as $10 per movement, these movements arrived at a time when the Swiss mechanical watch making industry was under assault from Japanese manufacturers, electronic movements, and most significantly quartz movement watches. With higher accuracy and lower production costs than Swiss automatic movements, quartz movement watches marginalized the claims of Swiss watchmakers to higher quality watches, dramatically reduced their sales, and put them in a position where every bit of profit counted as they struggled to survive in dramatically changed watch market. Even $10 per movement was probably too much of a premium for Swiss watchmakers faced with crushing competition and a battle to survive.

In contrast to this, through out the 70s to now, Zenith produced 36,000 bph movement watches which have attained legendary status. Zenith's El Primero movement has seen use in not only its Rainbow Chronographs, but also Tag Heuer, Rolex, Movado, Concord, and Panerai chronographs. The legendary status is directly related to the fact that the ability of mechanical chronographs to accurately measure short time intervals is directly related to the beat frequency of the chronograph's movement. With the highest beat frequency of any chronograph movement, the Zenith El Primero based chronograph was the first wristwatch chronograph to be able to time intervals down to 1/10th of a second. These chronographs continue to be the pinnacle of automatic mechanical movement chronographs, but due to the complexity and narrowness of the market for mechanical chronographs the cost of these movements is roughly five times the cost of the much more common lower beat Valjoux 7750 chronograph movement.

What is the future of 36,000 bph movements?

The LVMH Group, which owns Zenith and Tag and continues to produce chronographs based on the El Primero movement with supply of El Primero movements to non-LVMH companies having ended.

Favre Leuba in 2009 announced two limited edition models using 36000 bph manual wind movements, The Favre Leuba 401 is an entirely new movement, featuring not only a 36kbph beat frequency, but also an 8 day power reserve and classic Favre Leuba twin barrel, and the other watch Favre Leuba is producing is based on an old-stock A Schild. high frequency movement. The 8 day power reserve of the new Favre Leuba movement is particularly noteworthy as this achievement would seem to indicate that power consumption concerns with these movements have been addressed over the past 40 years.

Seiko also announced in 2009 two new models with 36,000 vph movements, the SBGH001 and SBGH003, but automaitc date models. The development of these models is attributed to advance in hairsping technology. Seiko also has purportedly developed movements at beat frequencies of 43,200 vph.

Seiko's developments are particularly interesting, as their innovative Spring Drive movement, has the potential to create a new standard for watch movements, the way their Astrolon quartz watch did. So for Seiko to be reintroducing traditional style high frequency movement watches is something to watch.

Against the preceding is the impending end of ETA movement supplies to non-Swatch group companies, the rise of Selita, Seagull, and other alternative movement producers, and it seems we are in a period where watch makers will increasingly focus on distinguishing their products through the movements they use.


... si-acuma - LA DRACU' - FAC UN REZUMAT LA CE AM SCRIS TIMP DE VREO ORA, CA S-A PIERDUT, NU STIU CUM ... :oops:

... spuneam ca in afara celor 12 producatori - care au imprumutat mecanismele lor si altora - cum este ETA si AS, dar si Zenith E.P. (catre Ebel, Rolex, Concord) mai sunt si altii, precum Bettlach
Companii precum Cyma, Damas, Lucien Piccard, Ulysse Nardin, Juvenia etc. au folosit diferite calibre 36k pt propriile modele.
Se pare ca si Piaget a construit modele 36k.
Mai ar fi clasa stop-watch, unde ii gasim pe Heuer, Lemania, Slava si Valjoux - ceasuri pt a cronometra (usual) evenimente sportive.
Rolex a utilizat in seria Daytona mecanismul Zenith E.P., numai ca l-a "incetinit" - de la 36k l-a dus la 28.8k.

ETA a produs mai multe calibre la 36k, inclusiv 2824 (http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19703)
2826 (date) (36,000 bph)
2839 (no date) (36,000 bph)
2837 (day-date) (36,000 bph)
2838 (day-date, data at 12) (36,000 bph)
2819 (no date, manual wind) (36,000 bph)
2806 (date, manual wind) (36,000 bph)
2816 (day-date, manual wind) (36,000 bph)

... mai scrisesem eu mai multe, dar ... e suficient, sper, pentru moment.

Spor la comentarii & contributii!

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 Subiectul mesajului: Re: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 10 Sep 2009, 18:55 
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Foarte interesant topic-ul.
Favoritul meu la acest capitol :
Seiko - GS
HB-36, Cal. 9S85A - 37 Rubine
Ref. : SBGH003
L.E. = 200 buc.

http://www.seiyajapan.com/product/S-SBG ... 03_LE.html :arrow:

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 Subiectul mesajului: Re: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 10 Sep 2009, 19:41 
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Frumos modelul Seiko ales de tine.
Cred ca doar Seiko si Zenith mai produc momentan mecanisme 36k.

Am ales sa incep prezentarea colectiei personale cu un Ebel, deoarece. pdop ar putea sa intre foarte bine si la "ultima achizitie", dar si pt faptul ca foloseste un mecanism rar, pe care nu l-am prea gasit, despre care se vorbeste pe unele forumuri, dar e mai greu de gasit - ETA 2832. Deci ...

Ebel Automatic (Ebel 30; ETA 2832)

Ce zice Dr. Ranfft despre acest calibru:

ETA 2832

Features
automatic; sweep second; day: quickset; date: quickset; hack feature


Data
11.5''', Dm= 25.6mm, H= 5.2mm
17 jewels; f = 36000 A/h; power reserve 40h


Foarte interesant este ce spune mai departe Ranfft:
Remarks
1971-1975; cf. Zenith 2832.
The 2832 fits into the ETA numbering system, but it is unknown. As the ETA-number was removed, and 2832 was embossed on another place, this is probably an ETA 2828, upgraded to 36000 A/h by Zenith, rather than an ETA 2832 exclusively for Zenith. However, 1971-1977 an ETA 2826 with 36000 A/h was made, but without date display and with Incabloc.


N-am apucat sa testez ceasul sa vad ce performante are (abia a venit).
Este prevazut, intr-adevar, cu "Hack" si "Quickset".
Dimensiuni:
35.0 mm x 42.0 mm x 11.0 mm; band 18 mm
All Stainless Steel
Geam Mineral

Carcasa nu este semnata Ebel, si asta imi ridica un semn de intrebare :?: :?
Pe capacul spate al carcasei este un serial # si atat.
Mecanismul pare sa se fizexe bine in carcasa, iar coronitza este semnata cu un E ciudat.

si-acum ... fotografiile! pam-pam!

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Imagine

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 Subiectul mesajului: Re: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 11 Sep 2009, 07:55 
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Nu pare carcasa originala, pe langa faptul ca nu e marcata. Observati atent sistemul de prindere mecanism de carcasa. Se vede ca a fost ''frezat/pilit'' ulterior (nu din fabrica) in 2 locuri pe inelul interior si apoi aplicate cleme cu surub. :wink:

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 Subiectul mesajului: Re: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 11 Sep 2009, 08:35 
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Am observat asta dar ma gandeam (iluzionam?) ca doar inelul ar putea fi "din exterior".
M-am bazat si pe faptul ca mai am inca doua Ebel cu carcasa 14/18k si nu sunt marcate in nici un fel (decat un serial si marcajul pt aur) - dar sunt 100% originale. Un singur Ebel din colectia mea este marcat cu "Ebel Watch Co Swiss" si marcajele 18k aferente (dar asta este de prin 1994, deci mai recent), si evident mai este modelul 1911, care este recent, cu safir pe spate si acolo scrie Ebel.
Cu ocazia asta lansez o intrebare catre cei care urmaresc acest topic:
Are cineva vreun Ebel in colectie care nu are marcaje de identificare pe capac? Multumesc anticipat.

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 Subiectul mesajului: Re: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 11 Sep 2009, 10:00 
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La modul general si pe scurt despre mecanismele ''36'' :
-Avantaj : precizie mai mare si relativ constanta decat cele cu BPH mai mic.
-Dezavantaj : uzura mai rapida in timp, implica automat revizii mai dese.
Pt. explicatii detaliate las pe cine stie mai multe. :)

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 Subiectul mesajului: Re: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 11 Sep 2009, 10:59 
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mecanismul e frumos, dar m-as fi asteptat sa fie un pic mai finisat, doar e unul atat de rar. in privinta carcasei il sustin pe zar. cred ca nu este originala, dar se potriveste destul de bine cu mecanismul, asa ca pana la urma e un mariaj acceptabil.


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 Subiectul mesajului: Re: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 12 Sep 2009, 20:11 
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Lucian M. a facut deja o excelenta introducere acestei reeditari - new Favre Leuba 36.000 vph!
O imagine si cu viitorul (2011)"in-house" FL-401 (36K).
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Imagine

Imagine

Imagine

Imagine

Imagine
- - - - - - - - - - - -
sursa: QP Magazine | nr. 37/2009 | pag. 76-80


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 Subiectul mesajului: Re: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 13 Sep 2009, 10:27 
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Seiko - GS (36) :)

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 Subiectul mesajului: Re: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 17 Sep 2009, 09:26 
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Seiko - Lord Marvel (36) :)

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 Subiectul mesajului: Re: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 08 Iul 2011, 13:17 
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Movado Kingmatic Video HS 360 (Movado 408)

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Intre timp au mai ajuns in colectie si alte ceasuri cu frecventa 36k:
Imagine

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 Subiectul mesajului: Re: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 09 Iul 2011, 07:56 
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Unul dintre cele mai rare mecanisme cu frecventa 36000 este ETA 2806.
In cautarile mele pe internet nu am dat de el, doar Ranfft vorbea de existenta lui.

Norocul a dat peste mine fara sa stiu, achizitionand un Zodiac NOS (in incercarea mea de a-mi intregi colectia Zodiac) care s-a dovedit a fi echipat cu ETA 2806.

Zodiac Mechanical GP NOS 36000 BpH (Zodiac 101; ETA 2806)

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 Subiectul mesajului: Re: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 10 Iul 2011, 09:11 
Va prezint si eu doua calibre cu" 36 k " din colectia mea :

Girard-Perregaux Gyromatic HF
( 36000 A/h cal: AS 1920 )

O piesa frumoasa (speciala pt mine...) initial vazuta in colectia lui Achraf !
Dupa indelungi cautari am "prins" unul intr-o stare deosebita ...

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Longines Ultra - Chron
( 36000 A/h cal:431 )

Cadranul nu este in cea mai fericita stare dar si asa ..este un ceas deosebit .

Imagine
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Imagine
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 Subiectul mesajului: Re: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 10 Iul 2011, 10:56 
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Welcome to the 36k Club moby!
GP-ul este mai frumos decat al meu: are carcasa de otel si un cadran rar.

Longines imi lipseste din colectie.
Al tau moby este destul de rar in tipul acela de carcasa, pacat de cadran.

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 Subiectul mesajului: Re: 36.000 bph aka 36k
MesajScris: 10 Iul 2011, 18:54 
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azi la repezeala, un seiko :mrgreen: , calibrul 5740C:

Imagine

Imagine

Imagine

si o poza de grup cu familia mea fastbeat:

Imagine


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